Ep. 21: First in Freedom—George Jackson

America is 250 years old! Listen as Izzy and David sit down with George Jackson to discuss the political and socioeconomic dynamics of North Carolina during the Revolutionary War, leading to NC becoming the First Colony in Freedom. 

Thanks for listening to Voices of the Albemarle, brought to you by The Daily Advance.
Stay connected with local news, stories, and community updates at:
🌐 https://www.dailyadvance.com/

📘 https://www.facebook.com/thedailyadvance/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Welcome back to Voices of the Album Marvel. I'm your host, Izzy Kelly Goss, and this is my co-host, David Prizer.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

I am here.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Happy Fourth of July. To mark the special 250th anniversary of America, we are going to be having Elizabeth City native and retired, semi-retired, Professor George Jackson to talk about northeastern North Carolina during the Revolutionary War and about becoming the first in freedom colony. But first, tonight, when this episode airs July 3rd, Elizabeth City, Pasquatank, Parks and Wreck will hold the annual 4th of July fireworks celebration at Waterfront Park.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

I'm getting ready for tonight.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yes, I can I can hear that.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

All right.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Um, this will take place after the July 1st Friday Art Walk. Parks and Rec purchased a barge this year, so the fireworks can be shot off from the water. That used to be the thing, I feel like when we were younger, they used to have a barge out in the water, but more recent years barge.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Barge.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Barge.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Like you're barging your way into my news segment. No, but they bought a barge this year because they have been shooting them off from Waterfront Park. So now they'll be heading back out on the river, which will give a lot more seating and access to the city. I hope not.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Uh secondly, for those who might have missed it, an article recently ran on our Prince front page about the library summer programs. In addition to a bunch of free activities for um children and teens and adults, they brought back free meal kits this summer through the school system.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

When will those be held?

SPEAKER_01 1:53

So those are held on Thursdays. So on Thursdays, people can go to the library from 11 to 1 and pick up meal kits, children 18 and under. Um any adults must be accompanied by a child. No, it's it's food to provide like three meals a day for a whole week.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yeah. So it's a really great program that the library does with ECPPS in order to make sure that children stay fed throughout the summer because not everybody is able to access food three meals a day like they would be able to during the school year. Perfect. Yes. Um, and finally, USA won their latest World Cup match against Bosnia and Herzegovina on Wednesday, July 1st, just in time for America's 250th anniversary.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Sounds a lot better than Bosnia and Herzegovina. Bosnia and Herzegovina. Bosnia and Herzegovina.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

We won 2-0. Uh regrettably one of our best players. You're this old, so how do you not know anything about? I feel like you should know.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Why would I use the word nil?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

They didn't use that when you were a child in ancient Rome. Regrettably one of our best players.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

I see.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Okay. One of our best players, Flo Balogun, got a red card and will be out of the next game against Beldrum. But I have full faith in our boys in the red, white, and blue. Do you, David?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

I do. I do. I'm just thinking of Flo.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yes, Flo Balogun. He's a he's a great player on our team, a very wonderful ass. They are, they are. They are. Um you know, I think I've seen a lot of people say this. Why not us? Why can't we win? Why not us?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

That's what their code says, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yes, U S A. U S-A. Anyways, on that note, I think we should go to talking a little bit about the history of the United States with George Jackson. Welcome again to Voices of the Albemarle. We're joined by George Jackson. Thank you so much for being here today.

SPEAKER_04 4:09

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

We are very excited to have you come on and give us a little bit of knowledge about North Carolina during the Revolutionary War. America is turning 250 years old on July 4th, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

If you want to give us a lot of knowledge, that'd be great too.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

A little bit, a lot. Maybe we'll find a good middle ground in there somewhere. But first, I want our audience, our listeners, to learn a little bit about you. So I'm hoping you can give us a little bit about your personal background.

SPEAKER_04 4:39

Okay. So I am a lawyer and a CPA, which are sort of professional things. However, uh most of my uh professional life was in academics. Uh I did uh three tours of duty at Elizabeth City State. Uh I actually retired from there. Uh and thereafter I went to a number of different schools. Uh, I sometimes my friends jokingly call me an academic gypsy that I've just sort of wandered around. Uh I uh also retired from Virginia Wesleyan. I did two tours of duty there. Uh and uh uh at present I teach as an adjunct at uh Boston Architectural College uh in real estate development. So I have a uh uh uh avocational interest in uh the Albemarle region uh uh where it's headed and uh equally important uh where it's been. Uh I uh I refer to it oftentimes as Dismalia, borrowing from William Byrd's uh term for the people of the region, the Dismolites. Uh so I see North Carolina, northeastern North Carolina, and Virginia as uh being united in many ways. And I think it'll reflect in our discussions because uh when I talk about this area, I am viewing it from this Dismalia perspective uh uh rather than drawing a line uh at 30, 36 degrees 30.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

I've never heard of the term dismalite.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

Uh William Byrd referred to the dismalites, uh, and he spoke of them in very unflattering terms. However, uh he wrote actually uh the history of the dividing line. He was part that they had representatives from North Carolina and Virginia, and uh if you read the book, it is clear by the time he gets to the end, he is admiring the North Carolinians and their plain uh lifestyle versus the more aristocratic uh background of the Virginia uh people there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

So you and I talked about that briefly when I interviewed you, gosh, I guess it was about a year ago now, um, when you were editing your cousin's book about the great dismal swamp and all of the snakes in it. Right. And we discussed that briefly, and that was so interesting. You have such an interesting knowledge of the area. I think, especially since you grew up here and your family has been here for so long.

SPEAKER_04 7:24

They have been. Uh I'm dying in the wool. I if I can make one more prefatory comment because I think it'll help uh as we go through this. And I was uh thinking about it. So uh this is uh I I I view the American revolution uh through two primary presumptions. And one of those is that what impacts you most is what is near to you, so geographical uh closeness. And the second uh perspective I have is how uh how what a driving force self-interest is uh in these things that so often we think in terms of as being uh uh you know the morally right thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Right.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

And uh I'm a big fan of um uh Adam Smith. As a matter of fact, I brought along with me two books today, and uh the uh the uh one of them is The Theory of Moral Sentiments by Adam Smith that he wrote a couple of years before uh the more uh famous one that you know we all know about. But uh the other one is uh moral man and immoral society, and this idea that uh that when we get into societal things, that so many of the decisions are driven by self-interest. So uh Adam Smith looked at it as that's a good thing. Uh and uh uh Reinhard Niebert looked at it as it's human, it's the way we are. So a lot of times you'll see me making comments uh or hear me making comments that might be somewhat cynical, and I don't intend them to be that way. Uh self-interest is uh a necessary component if we're gonna survive.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Absolutely. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_04 9:23

Sorry about that. No, not at all. A lot of information there.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

No, okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

You know how to do that.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

You don't know much if you got some luggage. It probably would help if I would read them first, yeah. So I could look at them.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

Yeah, that could help. Confession, I have not completely read the theory of moral sentiments. He's a tough read. Oh my gosh. I've spent a lot of time.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Everybody's read that.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

On that note, I do think on that sentiment, I do think we should um we should jump into our questions. Okay. I'm ready to get started. I'm excited. Um, I have done some research, as many of our frequent listeners know. I love to do research. So I'm gonna hit you with some stuff, but I have full confidence in you, George.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

Go ahead, you do.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

When American Unrest came about in the late 1760s, early 1770s, a lot of people were nervous about angering the British monarchy. Um, but a lot of people in North Carolina decided that at the very least they needed to take a stand, not necessarily to declare independence at first, but just in hopes of making a difference. Um, the women in Edenton had their own version of the Boston Tea Party in 1773, and many men in Wilmington pushed for North Carolina to have representation at the Continental Congress meetings. Um, and I'm curious to know how you feel this played a significant role in North Carolina eventually becoming first in freedom.

SPEAKER_04 11:27

Okay. Uh well, uh when I uh when you raise that term uh first in freedom, uh what pops into my mind, ironically, is first in flight.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Right. That's the more commonly known term is first in flight.

SPEAKER_04 11:43

So uh one of the things I've you know had an interest in is the the relationship between the two of them. And uh I did not realize that the first in freedom uh idea came from the state flag. Uh our state flag has two dates on it. Uh, one of them uh being the um the Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence, which uh apparently there's questions about whether really the their so-called declaration of independence in fact ever existed and what happened uh shortly, very shortly thereafter, weeks thereafter, the Mecklenburg resolves. Um uh and uh then so that's one date, the the Faves 20 date. And then the second date is the uh Halifax resolves. So uh yes, uh North Carolina was uh uh with all of the other colonies, uh, you know, this was, in my view, the rage in terms of political conversation. Uh, what are we gonna do about the British? You know, to put it in context of today, you know, what are we gonna do about AI? Uh and so uh uh uh to me, I think that the claim uh first in freedom uh might be a little bit misleading. Uh uh indeed, the Halifax uh resolves were the first official state uh proclamation to declare independence. Uh they were sent to the with the North Carolina delegation uh to the Continental Congress, but they were not formally introduced there uh because the Continental Congress, as opposed to uh our provincial Congress, thought that they were not sufficiently refined to merit the entire colonies uh statement. Uh and if I can comment about the Edenton uh Tea Party. So I thought uh growing up here that uh the Edenton Tea Party was the first that it preceded the Boston Tea Party. It's my understanding. No, it did not. It came following the Boston Tea Party. Uh and its primary impact was it was the first widely acknowledged and discussed uh declaration by women.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Yes, it was.

SPEAKER_04 14:38

Uh in fact, uh there's some kind of uh record of, I can't remember the name of the British uh uh member of parliament or leader of the government or whatever, and uh he was chatting about, you know, let's hope that the ammunition of the women in Edenton uh that it's not equaled in other places. That was very unusual. So, yes, North Carolina was out there, in my view, uh with this uh uh you know uh wanting to be free. Uh but uh it it wouldn't uh no more so if you take the totality of events than uh than other colonies, most uh importantly perhaps I went to our immediate north, Virginia, uh with all everything that was going on there.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

If if if I may ask in North Carolina, Virginia back then, was there a clear, overwhelming sentiment to be independent, or is that like a a kind of uh a glossy version we looked at we look at from from a distance? Was there a lot of uh polarization between I want to stay with the crown and or I want to I want to be totally independent? Did you all did you ever have to wonder who you were talking to? You know, I I I get the impression it wasn't as clearly divided as some people like to like to make it sound.

SPEAKER_04 16:19

And I agree with you that uh it was not um uh again, I'm gonna twist things a little bit towards northeastern North Carolina, and there was a uh very significant Quaker uh population so much so that uh uh one of the episcopal uh bishops of the diocese of North Carolina wrote uh a book. Uh it's probably been a hundred years ago from now, so maybe a hundred years from then, and he indicated that uh the Quaker religion was the only religion uh in North Carolina uh preceding uh the uh Civil War. So they have a very strong pacifist perspective, and so there um this was not a loyalty towards Great Britain as much as a um not wanting to have war. You know, we work things out otherwise. And uh the British uh actually had, and borrowing now uh a bit from the Ken Burns uh film, he uh explored that in depth. They had the southern strategy, and uh the there where they were not enjoying success in the northeast, they said, well, you know, maybe we can fare better uh in the um in the south. Uh and there were varied reasons that seemed to sort of conflict with it. Uh one is that the southern economy was uh primarily agricultural, um, and there was a tremendous amount of trading with the British as opposed to the Northeast beginning to move into manufacturing and uh so they had that strong tie. Uh similarly, the power brokers, so to speak, the aristocratic planters in the South, uh, they had uh they're just sort of why do I want to say this, their fundamental perspective on life and you know what their role was aligned quite a bit uh with the idea of the British aristocrats, the aristocracy. Um and then there was, even though this goes counter to what I was just saying, the idea among the British that there was a uh very significant population of enslaved persons. And if they could, and they did, uh if they could bring those persons over to their side, uh Yes, that was a thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

They would recruit enslaved men and offer them freedom for them and their families in exchange for for serving for the British Army.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

To drop some knowledge of my own. Yes, and there was uh there was definitely I feel like a split. Yes, yes, I there was a split all all over all 13 colonies. Yeah, I don't think any any one particular area was all 100% one way or the other.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Um I I'm going to go back again to this thing of self-interest, is that uh more so in my view, than the uh uh the the writings of the dignity of mankind, etc. It was driven by self-interest. And taxation was the big wedge there. The br you know, that really uh was the thing that started we talk about the Boston Tea Party, and that was uh in effect taxes on tea. Uh that it oftentimes that it's described as sort of the kickoff of the uh revolution.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

How much was uh the very agrarian here, but was there a lot of how much trading was going on between colonies in the south and Great Britain? Was it was was Great Britain a source of uh uh economic benefit to the the the southern colonies?

SPEAKER_04 20:43

There was a good bit of trade. Uh it's my uh the as best I understand it, the uh the the southern colonies were export or exporting agricultural products to the British, and they were getting back finished goods uh in exchange, uh including that tea. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

So that would have been part of the self-interest if you were a landowner here and you were and you you you made your living with you know raising crops or raising whatever capital, you know, who knows?

SPEAKER_04 21:13

Yeah. Uh the uh another thing that popped into my mind in thinking about this was the difference between the coastal uh population and it's uh uh it it was not uh a slave-driven type of economy, as opposed to when you start going into the interior part where they were raising cotton and tobacco and uh so there was a a different perspective there on the should we be enslaving persons.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Kind of to jump back. To what you said earlier about British troops kind of seeking out those loyalists in the area. That kind of leads me to my next question. Um there were a lot of British troops that started moving down here either after they had failed or succeeded in conquering colonies up north. They decided that it was a good idea to try and recruit troops down here. There was this feeling, I guess, this assumption that there were a lot of loyalists in the South. Um UNC professor Catherine Duval, Dr. Catherine Duval, um, she said that they were wrong and that rebel militiamen actu actually outnumbered them, specifically at the Battle of Morse Creek in Wilmington. I'm curious if you have any perspective or thoughts on what would have given the British the impression that there would be so many loyalists in North Carolina, that they would actually try and come down here. We briefly talked before we started recording about like the Battle of Great Bridge. That's they were on their way to North Carolina.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Um yes. Uh what pops into my mind as we uh the the the Battle of Great Bridge is is uh uh to me something of considerable interest, and it demonstrates as well this um the impact of Quakerism. Um I have an old map, it's just a copy of an old map of the Albemarle region, and it shows the uh Quaker assemblies or what did they call meeting houses. Uh there's still two, I believe, maybe more, but I'm aware of two uh friends meetings uh congregations, and they're both in Perquimans County, uh Piney Woods and Upriver. Uh and um if you look at the troops that were uh that were created regiments to support the war, uh uh uh in in Perquimans County, uh it's minimal. Now there was a lot of sentiment. Uh, in fact, if we get the chance to comment on John Harvey, who was very instrumental in the uh Halifax resolves and uh uh the uh non-importation agreements, etc. But um uh uh uh Camden, well let's back up. Camden was actually not created as a county until I think it's 1777 or 1778. So at the beginning of the Revolutionary War, uh Camden was part of Pasquatine. Uh once the division occurred the uh into the counties, the regiments uh were divided as well. And the Camden County uh Patriots, and Camden County's History Center makes a lot of um uh they they want to talk about that. That the the Camden County, despite its small population, uh sent more troops to the Patriot effort uh than did uh any other county in the state. I believe I have it that way. Oh wow far exceeded Pasquatank County and Perquimans County, uh well for all of the other counties. So I'm I'm circling back around as sort of this what is close to you is what moves you. And um in Camden County, if the wind is blowing right and there is a big fire in Norfolk, uh you would you would know about it. Uh, you know, this is part of the there were there were trading paths uh going between uh North Carolina and Norfolk. So what was happening there was uh a big thing. As I reflect on what I've just said, I I don't think I've really been on point as to why the British would have thought that. But uh they had uh they had well, they had a a uh they had spies, you know, so they were listening all the time, and there was this uh uh you know a lot of division between uh amongst the uh the US or US, I should say, the colony, the people of the colonies, and they're hearing it and they're aware of these other things we're talking about. So it doesn't surprise me. It would be, I guess, the best I could say that they would have thought that there was this possibility of an uprising that would uh would be in their favor.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Well, what I mentioned before, wouldn't wouldn't one of the reasons, not the only reason, but wouldn't wouldn't one of the reasons be that there was a benefit, economic benefit to the lifestyle here because of the trading going on more so than the north? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:08

One of the reasons right, right. Uh and a benefit so that uh yes, I I'll give you that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

If I may add, actually, once the war was in full swing, the British monarchy over in England decided they were going to cut off imports to many of the colonies that had large numbers of patriotic militia. And actually trade with the West Indies became very prominent because they could there were lots of loyalists down there. It was still in control of the British monarchy, but they could win over a lot of people in the West Indies a lot easier, and then Dismalia, referring back to that, the dismal swamp actually became a huge, huge trading port, like the entire area all the way up. I guess there's uh there at least used to be a way that they could use the dismal swamp to get supplies up towards the northern colonies.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

How about that? I uh and I don't have uh much knowledge about that because I think in terms of the canal when it was built, but that was later. But yes, that that makes a a lot of sense to me. Uh I'll I'll once again make a very local comment. I'm now gonna talk about Palin's alley. Yeah, right. You know, we can yell and uh we they would hear us over there. Uh that uh William Palin, the for whom the alley is named, his prime he started out as a farmer and then became uh a, what am I gonna call it, a shipping magnate. And his trade was with the West Indies and Barbados, and he was not alone in that regard. Uh as a matter of fact, uh, I think uh Izzy, you were there when we were talking about sort of the history of music and how the music in coastal Carolina was this uh uh for lack of a better term, I'm gonna call it Afro-Cuban type of music because of all the impact that was going on in that trade. So yes, yeah, the uh there was a lot of that activity. Um a fellow that I was uh chatting with yesterday made a comment that I didn't uh realize, uh, and he was talking about the slave owners and how you uh approached the the business of slavery as immoral as it was, that the uh the West Indies uh slave owners, uh their perspective was that these were persons of property that you exhausted, you used them until you couldn't. In contrast, that the uh the inland, particularly in Virginia, the slave uh traders, etc., they looked at it as more like uh once again, tragic way to characterize it, but as a crop that you cultivated and bred. And yeah, it's a totally different perspective on it. That is interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

We've gotten a little off topic from my line of questioning. Although it's my apologies. No, that's okay. I honestly I think I started it, but this has been so interesting, so it doesn't matter. But to kind of jump back to what we were talking about earlier, the Halifax resolves. Okay, that is, I think technically what made North Carolina first in freedom.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yes. So they like they made this declaration that was April 12th, 250 years ago. So April 12th marked 250 years since North Carolina provincial congress signed the declaration. Um, Samuel Johnson of Edenton was actually president of the provincial congress at that time. What do you think, aside from the actual Declaration of Independence itself, was maybe the most influential part of the Halifax resolves that kind of maybe even impacted the state's constitution when it was drafted and later signed in December of 1776?

SPEAKER_04 31:27

Of course, I'm gonna answer you answer you by meandering. Okay. Okay. And I wanna I want to get my plug-in for John Harvey of Harvey's point. Uh that it's named not for him, but for that family. Uh and uh you're right that uh uh Samuel Johnson of Edenton at the fourth provincial uh Congress was the I think speaker of it was the term that they used. Uh the at the second one uh was John Harvey. And uh John Harvey was very involved in the uh the Intolerables Act uh that the colonies were uh rebelling and declaring that they weren't going to abide by British rule, declaring independence of sorts. Um and and then John Harvey suffered a tragic death at uh not that old uh of age, fell from a horse, but his uh sons were uh part of the fourth provincial congress and proponents of the uh Halifax resolves. So my I'm trying to get this local impact on the uh Halifax uh resolves. Um and and uh I had I I I took a look at them and um I actually I think what I morphed into was the North Carolina Constitution uh when I was looking at it and come and uh uh comparing the North Carolina Constitution to the United States Constitution. Uh and I I look at the North Carolina Constitution as being uh driven in large part by the Halifax resolves. Made the comment a little bit earlier that the Halifax resolves were sent to the Continental Congress, but were not formally adopted by them because uh they're the feeling that they hadn't been completely fleshed out as they uh should could have. But I do think that they impacted more on the North Carolina Constitution. Uh and what I found most surprising about the North Carolina Constitution is that it began with a Bill of Rights. Uh there were 25 items. Bill of, you know, we get we the people, you know, we're entitled to this. Don't tread on me. They didn't have that particular language in there, before they got to this creation of how the government is going to work. Uh interesting. And the second thing was to to me uh surprising, the detail in the North Carolina Constitution, much more uh, to my reading, um expansive in terms of the text of it than the United States Constitution. So um, again, I know I'm meandering and uh bring me back around.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

I mean, I think that you made a really interesting point. Um so you said, first of all, obviously a lot of influential families, especially from the area, not families, but influential people from our region, obviously had an impact on that. I want to know kind of specifically, you kind of mentioned comparing the declaration of independence and I mean not the declaration of independence, sorry, the constitution of the United States with the state's constitution, and then you mentioned the Bill of Rights. Do you feel like the Bill of Rights specifically before we jump into the bigger picture with the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence? Do you feel like that Bill of Rights was directly influenced by the needs of the people in this area?

SPEAKER_04 35:34

Yes. Yes. Uh uh, I do. Let's remember that uh North Carolina, I believe, was the 12th of the 13 colonies to subscribe to the United States. So, you know, we were talking earlier about first in freedom. Uh, well, first in freedom uh it's a little bit different from uh first in let's build a unified state colonies here. And I I do think that uh a bill of rights of the people, a fear of the uh power of government, uh I'm thinking of uh Thomas Paine in his book uh common sense that uh said, you know, government stems from evil.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:23

Uh it's necessary. Uh and Reinhold Nieber takes a little bit of the same approach there. So uh to me that uh that is a that is a very fundamental distinction, and it gets in a little bit as well to this um uh the Hamiltonian vision of a strong central government versus the Jeffersonian view of limited government and rights of the individuals. And I think North Carolina was clearly uh Jeffersonian, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Um, but like I said, before we got to the bigger picture, I want to jump to that bigger picture. Do you think that our declaration of independence as a colony, like you said, we were 12 out of 13, right? But we were the first to declare independence.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

That's correct.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Do you think that that as a colony helped shape the nation's declaration, which was just three months later? Do you think that kind of kickstarted anything? What do you what is your perspective?

SPEAKER_04 37:28

Uh not as much as we'd like to think. Yes, I think it was part of it, but uh there were other um uh I'm gonna call them unofficial. Actually, I had some notes on that uh that uh showing uh what was happening. Uh so uh Rhode Island in in May of 1776 uh formally renounced its allegiance to the king. Virginia uh two weeks later in 1776 uh uh uh did its uh uh, you know, I actually as I read this, I'm coming back to defend North Carolina. I was thinking that North Carolina was third because it's third in my list, but I'm going back and saying, go, North Carolina. You you I knew it was the these others were uh sort of unofficial, and the North Carolina Halifax Resolve were official for the provincial Congress, and uh uh April does come before May. Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

So maybe not necessarily the declaration of independence for the United States so much as for other colonies in the area.

SPEAKER_04 38:52

And for the and for the uh for the uh United States as well. Uh yeah, I I I I I do think I'm going back, circling back around to the North Carolinians, uh, at least among the Patriots of North Carolina, the uh quest for independence versus the quest to be a unified nation.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

That is so interesting. To kind of wrap us up after the war ended in 1783. Okay. Um the first official census of the United States was taken seven years later, 15 years, almost 15 years after or over 15 years after the war started in 1790. I'm sure it's impossible to summarize how much America has changed over 250 years, but you had mentioned this to me. So I I want to ask how you think what your thoughts are on the change of population over the next 200 years versus you know, 15 years after a huge war with around, I think there were around 25,000 deaths of colonial patriots, not to mention, I'm sure, thousands of other deaths of loyalists that maybe even continued to live here after the war.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

Yes, I'm very interested in that. Uh I I I don't know as much as I would like to know about that, but I do spend time trying to uh sort through that data. Um and the 1790s census, which was the first ever in the United States, it didn't uh address economic matters other than it it uh as a matter of fact, its categorization was uh uh female uh uh uh let's see uh uh female uh women, and then for men, it had uh over 16, uh like warriors, so to speak, and under 16. And then uh those those were all white. Okay. And the other two categories were slaves, uh, enslaved persons, and then uh free uh as they then use the terminology, uh Negroes. And the uh the population uh breakdown uh in uh the the counties that I have spent much time are are are the Albemar counties, it was about a third of the population would have been uh what we would now call persons of color, right? Primarily African Americans. So uh one of the things that I uh was curious about is was there this migration out of our area to other re you know, we hear about, you know, going to uh Chicago or wherever because the lifestyle was better there. And um I'm the comparison I'm making right now is to the 1950s census, and I have uh uh quite an interest in the 1950s census because I was born in 1949. And so I'm trying to picture, you know, when I came into the world. And if I take those same counties, uh, and this is households, they had shifted versus individuals, the uh the uh the population of African Americans had dropped uh 26% roughly in 1950. Now, as we come closer to today, it has uh increased, but uh it is now with non-white to use that uh term, uh you've got uh Hispanic, uh so many other cultures have come into that, and uh it's back at about where it was. The other part of the census data that I was interested in was the uh median income, because they tracked, they didn't track that in the 1790 uh census, but they did the 1950 census. And I recall uh as a very young uh individual living in Elizabeth City, I'm gonna say I'm five, six, or seven years old, that uh my dad, who was a shipyard employee, we had a uh a black maid that came to our house. And I have often thought about when I was growing up in Elizabeth City, it seems like that the the lifestyle was as good as it was now. My mother didn't work out of the house, the people weren't in debt like they are now. So uh I am trying to track the economic status now versus 1950. Uh and I actually uh the the the the numbers were surprising to me. I thought that uh the The African American population was, you know, sort of de facto uh near enslavement uh because their economic circumstances were so poor. And they were, but they their their median household income was about half of the white uh median household income.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

That is so interesting, actually. Um I'm sure that it will continue to grow and change over the next 200 years. And let's hope for the good. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. I agree. Um honestly that wraps up my questions. This has been so interesting to me. David, do you have any more questions?

SPEAKER_02 44:44

This is fascinating. I I think I mentioned to you this is gonna be the dumbest statement in the world. Um, but again, I'm originally not from this area. Um so my understanding of what went on in colonial times in the south is is I'm I'm kind of that's new information to me. I I know what the map looks like. I just didn't think of it. I didn't think of going to the north, New England for a while. Um this is what hits me. How the heck did anybody actually run around, fight, throw things, yell at everybody in the middle of summer with those really hot uniforms? I don't I don't understand that.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

Well, you've got to think global warming has really heated things up over the last 250 years. I'm sure it was hot, but I don't I don't know that it was the UV index might have been lower. Well, no, but they did wear wool coats though.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

I know these these the the British army uh they they they had a different climate where they were. I mean, that all goes into things. I mean, they came over here, they say, why am I fighting in this weather? I can't I go off like the why can't we invade I Iceland or something like that?

SPEAKER_04 45:59

The most amazing thing to me is uh envisioning myself as being one of those foot soldiers, and they've said to me, now you and this other 120 people, you're gonna be on the front line, and most of you will be killed. Me too now Me too.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Yeah, me too. Yeah, I I I think of that, I think of that too. Um I just just let me ask you, uh again, my knowledge of of uh the colonial times harkens to I think of Benjamin Franklin and you know uh Adams and those kind of names. What are the who are the the Ben Franklins with the John Adams of the Alvemarle region?

SPEAKER_04 46:48

I'm gonna go back to John Harvey as uh one and um uh I'm I'm trying to sort through uh Pasquatank County did not have uh uh I'm gonna say Pasquatank County and Camden County, there were to my well let me back up. In Camden, well there sorry I'm meandering on this because I'm processing as I'm saying Camden County had uh a number of very uh famous uh soldiers as opposed to the other counties up here. Uh I'm trying to think of the Gregory fellow who was a brigadier general.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

What made them famous? Excuse me? What made them famous?

SPEAKER_04 47:40

Uh their their uh war accomplishments, okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 47:46

Uh and the the uh Dempsey Burgess from Camden County. But once again, these are soldiers in the Revolutionary War. In terms of the political leaders, I'm circling back around to uh Harvey, and uh I I'm trying to remember the was it would it be Richard Spate in Edenton? Uh and I could be off on that. Uh well, you know, we we did not have in uh northeastern North Carolina the Patrick Henry's and the Thomas Jefferson's, uh uh James Madison's. They weren't here.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Right, right. I understand. But there was a lot, again, I I keep going back to this one thing, the agrarian nature of the of the uh of the lifestyle here would really change how people viewed. Do I want to be independent, do I not want to be independent, because that they were so dependent upon uh the farming and and and the the the economy was so based in that. Um that that is my understanding and my my knowledge as I was growing up and reading about that. So that really did it impact how people viewed which way they wanted to lean. It also viewed their passions for how vehement they would be for going to one side or the other. Um, and of course, they wanted to protect their condos on the coast too.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

I don't think in uh our area that we had the kind of wealth, the aristoctic inherited wealth that uh they had in Virginia when I was.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Was that a stark uh dividing line? Or is it or is it just become different? You you mentioned before that that the individual you you you talked about as the years went on admired the lifestyle of uh of uh the North William Burgin. Right. Yeah uh more so than the aristocratic nature of Virginia. But was that a big stark change or was it gradual uh going as you're further further south you got?

SPEAKER_04 49:52

Uh I'm gonna uh make sort of a cynical comment now that uh hasn't really changed that much. I I joke. I joke when I say that. Uh but uh uh William Byrd, uh the fellow that I was alluding to the history of the dividing line, uh there was he was a there was uh uh over a long time frame, up until the 1960s, the bird family was the powerful, in fact, it was referred to as the bird machine. Uh seems like uh virtually always one of the birds, I think the last one was Harry Bird, was one of Virginia's senators. And so uh uh, you know, you would have pictured Byrd as being this uh individual that was uh uh looked upon the uh common man in a very um demeaning way. Uh but the more he knew them, the more he admired them. It's clear uh to me in reading his book that that was the case. Very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Uh just to add my own last little bit of knowledge. There were some aristocrats in the area that actually did make contributions to the war. I don't know if either of you have ever heard of Edward Buncombe. He had an estate that was uh referred to as Buncombe Hall in uh in Tyrrell County.

unknown 51:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

And he actually was from the West Indies and he inherited a large plot of land here, and he moved his wife and daughter here um shortly before the war in the late nine uh 1760s, and he and his wife and daughter moved here. They had a few more children, and uh, you know, they were here until his wife died in childbirth, and um somewhere in there he became the colonel of the Tyril Militia and the magistrate and clerk of courts, and he became a very powerful and influential man, and then eventually he went on to fight next to George Washington. Um, he would fight alongside him, and then I believe he died. I'm actually looking at some notes that I have to get.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

Oh, you're right, he did die.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

He but he died in May of 1778. Um he actually fell down the stairs and reopened poorly healed battle wounds after being a prisoner of war in Philadelphia for for many, many months. Um, and there's actually I think a candlestick, pure pure silver candlesticks at one of the I'm trying to think, one of the Mason lodges near here because he was a Mason. And um letters that he had written to his uh children were sent to his daughters um by George Washington. Uh and and that's that's that. Uh his children were all sent to different areas. So his his family line did not continue here. His children were sent to New Jersey and um further west in North Carolina and just wherever they could go to be safe. Um, but he actually used his home as a safe point for the Wilmington men who were hoping to send people to the Continental Congress. They would have meetings there in secret occasionally.

SPEAKER_04 53:34

I'm not familiar with that name. It's fascinating what you were saying. Uh my maternal family line is uh Man's Harbor and Englehard, uh, which is on that peninsula. Uh-huh. And uh I refer to that as South Dismalia. Yes. Uh the uh Albemarle Sound separates uh you know our peninsula here from that one. So I I don't know much about that. And I've always viewed that area as being just as hard scrapple as you can get. I'm uh now with sea level rise, uh, a good part of that peninsula is you know just right at sea level. They even have dikes around there. But that is uh very interesting to know. I shall look forward to learning more about that.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Well, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast today.

SPEAKER_04 54:23

Well, thank you for having me and giving me the opportunity to think about this a bit.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Of course. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to think about this a bit. Yes, it will. Uh, this will be in our special July 4th edition. Happy 250 to all who celebrate, which is all Americans, I suppose. Uh Coles over there laughing at me for that one. Thank you again to all of our listeners. Thank you again to George Jackson. Please be sure to stay tuned for another episode today.